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Ep. 215: How this conversion copywriter helps powerhouse female entrepreneurs spice up their brand and business through their messaging with Mackenzie Fleming

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In this episode, I speak with Mackenzie who is a copywriter for powerhouse female coaches who aren’t afraid to stand out, spice up their industry, and make a real name for themselves. 

As a conversion copywriter, she writes everything from sales pages to website copy to email campaigns (and beyond) that sell your sh*t FOR you (and sound more like you than you do).

She is also a copywriting coach for those who want to learn to master their own brand messaging!

Listen on to find out how Mackenzie has been able to help female entrepreneurs spice up their industry and brand as a conversion copywriter.

Listen Below:

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Transcription:

Debbie:

Hey everyone. Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to speak to today’s guest. I’m here with MacKenzie. 

Hey, Mackenzie. 

Mackenzie:

Hey! 

Debbie:

Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell us about you and why you live an offbeat life? 

Mackenzie:

Yes, I can tell you about myself. My favorite topic. So, I’m Mackenzie Fleming, I’m a conversion copywriter for coaches. 

What a copywriter means is basically I write all that stuff that makes you money like website copy, emails, launch copy, social media, things like that. 

I’m with an offbeat life… I started in the corporate world. I got my degree in professional technical writing and right away went into a Fortune 500 company where I worked as a conversion copywriter for, I think, 3 years. And it was just not about it. 

So now I am running my business full-time. I work with the most freaking amazing female entrepreneurs to write words that make them a ton of money and teach them how to write, their own words, that make a ton of money. So I could not be happier. 

Debbie:

I love when I hear people talk about transitioning to something that really lights them up. And That’s definitely you, Mackenzie. If anyone ever meets you, or even just listens to your voice, you have so much energy that you bring with you.

And I think it definitely resonates with the words and the things that you write which is incredible.

Mackenzie:

Yeah, I get very excited about this stuff. It’s funny to hear you say that I bring energy ‘cause if my boyfriend heard you saying that, he’d be like, “I’m sorry, she sleeps all day long when she’s not working.” But I definitely like this stuff – hypes me up. 

Debbie:

You know what? It’s because it takes a lot of energy out of you all this stuff that’s why when you’re not working, you’re sleeping. 

Mackenzie:

Exactly.

Debbie:

I am the same way. Whenever I’m not working, whenever I’m not doing my podcast, I’m like on the couch, a couch potato. That’s all I do.

Mackenzie:

Oh, yeah. Like, I can’t move. I’m like, “Babe, bring me some food, my legs don’t work anymore,” even though I haven’t moved from my computer all day – it’s fine.

Debbie:

I know. I have, like, my laptop and food on top of my chest and that’s all I’m doing: working, typing, and eating.

Mackenzie:

Love it.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s my day. But anyways… 

So when you left your corporate job, what was it like to really work for yourself and prepare for this journey? Did you do anything to really make sure that you can make this more sustainable for yourself? 

Mackenzie:

Yeah. My transition was pretty smooth because I did start my business as a side hustle and it was in the same niche and industry – copywriting. Basically, as soon as I started at a Fortune 500 job, I would go home everyday and I would be like, “I did not get my copywriting fixed. What I wrote was super boring. I need to do more copywriting.” 

So I just started my business basically right off the back but it was a side thing. I was writing anything and everything for all different kinds of businesses. I didn’t really know where I wanted to be until I was right about to leave corporate. I decided, “Okay, it’s time to niche down. I’m going to do B2B tech (which stands for business-to-business technology). Cool! Let’s do it. 

So I left. It was a pretty smooth transition. I had saved up some money. It wasn’t like I wanted to save up more. My mom didn’t talk to me for a little while because she was like, “This is a bad move. You need to save money. You’re going to die.” And I’m like, “No.” 

It was smooth though. I would have liked to maybe wait another month or so but it was just the right time. My team in corporate was kind of a bit of a sh*tshow and I was like, “Well, everybody is leaving so I guess this is my queue.”

Debbie:

You’re like, “Yeah, this is a sign. I need to get out of this place. I need to start my own.”

Mackenzie:

Exactly.

Debbie:

What would you do if you could do it differently? Do you think that you would do the same thing? You’d make the same decisions or do you think you’d do anything differently? 

Mackenzie:

I like that I had started early and got a grip on what I wanted to do a little bit. I mean, it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to do because I switched completely to working with female coaches.

But I like that I had experimented a bit. I felt like by the time I got into my full-time business just doing this, I had a better understanding of where I wanted to go instead of kind of like, “Let me just try everything and see what works,” because that’s the type of person I am. But I had already gotten that out of the way. 

This is kind of don’t have to do it my business but before I left I was like, “I still want to do copywriting but maybe not here. Like, maybe I’ll find a different job.” And I was looking for job in the office, on my computer, everyday. 

And I probably wouldn’t do that again because people were like, “McKenzie,  not be whatever, but you can’t keep trying to find new jobs at this job. Like, we all see you.” And I’m like, “It’s fine. You all know that I don’t like it here anyway. That’s cool.”

Debbie:

I love how you were just like, “Okay, I don’t care. I want to get out of here. All of you know it and that’s okay with me.”

Mackenzie:

Yeah.

Debbie:

So when you finally left, when you finally had those side hustles turn that into an actual business, did you have a what now moment? ‘Cause we all have that, right? 

We finally got the nerve to leave that job, to do something that we really loved to do. Allow us more freedom and to do what we’re passionate about. But what happens when you actually do it? What was that moment like for you? 

Mackenzie:

I love this question because I don’t know if I have like a what now as much as I have like a what next. Like my mind was always like spinning. 

I always had all these ideas, “Here’s what I want to do, here is where I want to go. This is what I want to build.” Even like, “Oh, this is a colleague mag that I want to sometimes create,” but I was just like, “Holy sh**! What should I do next? Out of these things, I don’t know the right move, the right order to put them in.” 

And I remember I had invested quite a bit and having my website designer I’m like, “Okay, I’m leaving corporate I need to have this baller ass website.” Invested a lot in it; time and money and then as soon as it finished, I was like, “Okay, so that project is over but like where am I getting money now?”

So, that was it for me.

Debbie:

You were like, “I don’t know what to do now but It’s going to work out somehow.” And I think that that’s really when you first start out. You mentioned this, it’s like, “What do I do? How do I make this work?” ‘Cause, there seems to be a lot of stops, right? 

Because for us who’ve been doing this for several years when we talk to a newbie and we lay out the stuff that you have to do, it sounds really overwhelming for someone who’s just starting out. But then when you’re doing this for a long time, it’s just the steps that you take so it’s absolutely normal. 

So It’s kind of interesting how you feel when you start and then you’re in the trenches are two completely different things. I mean, you’re still panicking but It’s a little different.

Mackenzie:

I agree a hundred percent. I feel like this is what school hasn’t prepared us for. Like, entrepreneurship and all. The internet has tons of great information but that’s the problem. There’s so much good information that you’re like, “What do I read? What do I follow?” It’s all so overwhelming.

And I definitely let it get to me a lot. I’m like a 100% perfectionist. I’m pretty hard on myself with my business and everything. So I’m like, “Oh, let me read one more blog before I actually implement everything. These last four hundred blogs ’cause I want to make sure it’s perfect the first time.”

My biggest lesson, probably from entrepreneurship as a whole, was stop di**ing around with learning and start just implementing.  Like,  the idea of messy action I keep hearing about, I was not here for it. And now I’m like, “F*** it. Let’s just try something and see how we can improve next time.” 

Debbie:

I agree with that and I think I’ve been seeing that more and more lately, especially with Clubhouse when you’re talking to more people. 

There’s this trend, well, not trend, I mean, it’s always been there, of paralysis of analysis where you just keep researching, you just keep trying to go out on Google making sure you have all the information that you need. But at the end of the day, here’s a little secret for you, you’re never going to find all the answers, right? 

And you’re going to find the answers as you take messy actions as Mackenzie is talking about because you learn, you grow, you learn, you grow, you learn, you grow, you make mistakes a lot. And everyday, honestly for me, there’s always something brand new that I have to solve and that’s actually how you keep growing as when you make those mistakes when you stumble. 

Being an entrepreneur is really interesting. 

Mackenzie:

Yeah, I feel like making those mistakes a hundred percent taught me and my business so much; made me so much stronger. But I will say I do not ever regret having a coach. 

Like, finding someone who has been where I am and has gotten to a place I want to be. Helped me immensely because I just felt like I wish there was someone I could ask these questions to. I made the mistake – hello. 

I’m always calling my mom and being like, “Hey what’s up? Uhm. Not much. How’s the dog? Cool! What should I do about XYZ in my business?” And because I had nobody to ask, I just wanted an opinion, and then whatever she said, of course, I’m like, “No mom, you don’t know anything. Bye!” It never worked out.

Now I’ve learned not to do that. So, thankfully, I have a coach. It’s such a great thing to have a sounding board and support from someone who gets it because people who aren’t entrepreneurs just don’t get how all that works obviously.

Debbie:

Yeah. I definitely agree. I mean, It’s interesting when I see people do that, right? And I did this in the beginning too. I’m like, “I could figure this stuff out on my own.”

Mackenzie:

Right!

Debbie:

“Why am I gonna spend money on someone. That’s so expensive. Please. I could do this.” And then six months later, you’re still in the same spot. If anything, you dug a deeper hole for yourself.

Mackenzie:

Yes.

Debbie:

And not to say you can’t do it on your own. You definitely can but It’s definitely a lot harder to do it. And honestly, if I didn’t have a mentor and a coach and just people helping me along the way and also a community, I wouldn’t be here or I still wouldn’t know what to do with a microphone and tech because I’m just not technologically savvy. 

So it’s just you definitely need to help, right? We can’t grow on our own, we need other people and we need that support for sure. 

Mackenzie:

Yeah. And I want to point out what you said about community. Like, that’s what I should have said from the start. As much as even having a coach but having any kind of support like a community, friends, no matter if they’re met through Instagram and you just like DM or call every now and then but they’re like entrepreneurs who get it

It’s just so helpful to have somebody who feels like not in it with you but you’re in the same like Arena and you keep running past each other but when you run past each other you can like high five or something. 

It just feels good to know, like, there is someone else who understands what you’re talking about and can maybe give some sort of sound advice.

Debbie:

absolutely. And you know what it is too? The things that we want to do are still considered abnormal, right? And what we do is not something that you typically learn in school. Like you mentioned, McKenzie, no one really talked to you about how to handle this stuff. 

I mean, there are business schools but then there’s a real-world business and they’re two completely different things that just don’t happen that way. And also the people around us, don’t know what It’s like so It’s hard to even talk about it.

And most of the time because we feel so isolated, we just shut up, we don’t do anything. And that’s why having, like you said, that community is so important and especially if you’re doing remote work now.  Now you’re even more isolated because you can’t really see anyone. So, That’s tough. 

Mackenzie:

Yeah. 

And I think one of my biggest mistakes, and I didn’t even really realize this or think about it until yesterday when I was in the clubhouse room talking about the value of community, was I remember getting started and obviously, there’s like cool people I’m following that maybe I want to reach out to or like I’m seeing people who have their entrepreneur friends that they meet up with and I’m like, “Okay. Head down, eyes straightforward, let’s just focus, let’s just go, don’t get distracted., don’t make friends.”

When I started making friends, building my community, and making all sorts of connections, and getting to know people, it was like when things really took off for me..

Debbie:

I feel the same way. I think it’s such a great thing to finally realize that you have those people who will really support you and also give you advice when you need it because they really and truly understand where you’re coming from. 

And that’s why when you have social media like Instagram, Clubhouse, things like that, where you can find those types of people., that’s so great. 

So for you, Mackenzie, when you were trying to transition to creating your own income, your own business, making more freedom for yourself to do what you want with your life, how did you actually land your first client? 

Mackenzie:

Oh, man. I don’t even remember my first client. So when I started and I was at my Fortune 500 company and I was going home and like I wanna still work, I did all these how to find freelance writing jobs.

And I came across Upwork and I was like, “Let’s try it,” and I did that. So that’s definitely probably how I got my first client on the side. And then my first client off of Upwork though, I still don’t even know, I have a bad memory but there have been so many of them. So, I used to do just a lot of random sh**t.

Debbie:

I love when I hear people say that, Mackenzie, because it takes a little bit of time to find your footing in which industry you really want to be in. So you have to go out there. You have to figure that out in order to do well because then you know exactly where you want to be, you’re happy with that and it’s going to become so much more sustainable. 

Mackenzie:

I, a hundred percent, agree. Like, that is something I’m proud to share, it’s like, “Yes, I wrote blog posts for a pest control company but I don’t regret a second other than it being gross.” 

I was talking with someone in Clubhouse a while back and they were talking about like I’ve been in this niche since day one, I’ve only worked with XYZ people since day one and they were like really proud of that. And I was like, “That’s cool, but like, “I’m also really proud that I have been everywhere.”

Like, I’ve tried all the things and they’ve given me just so much experience that you think wouldn’t help in my writing or in life but it really does. 

Debbie:

I agree with that. For me, my entire 20s, I was really figuring out myself. I was an art teacher, a therapist, a gallery manager, a photojournalist, I had my own art class for kids. Yeah, It was a lot. 

I had an online merch business. Like, this is a lot of things that you have to do to really figure it out. And I think when people don’t do that, I mean, obviously, there are certain people that just really know what they want to do right off the bat and I think that’s incredible, but for people like us, Mackenzie, who are struggling with that, you don’t know what you want to do. 

It’s just going out there and finding that out yourself. That really helps because that’s really going to allow you to see where you fit in. 

Mackenzie:

Yeah. I remember so clearly. I have this memory of when I was at my corporate job. It was like a few months after I graduated and I argued like, “This was not the job I wanted to be very long.” But I had no idea like, “Do I want to go back to school?” Which I was thinking I did for a little while. “I Don’t know what other kinds of writing are there?” 

And I remember just texting a group of my friends and I’m like, “Does anybody know what I should do with my life?” And they’re like, “No…” And I’m like, “Okay, I just really wish someone would say, ‘This is what you need to do. What you want to do.” And then I’ll figure out what I need to do to actually do it.” 

Like, I’m in it to win it, I will do whatever I need to do but I still need to figure out what that thing actually is like. That was the hardest part. 

Debbie:

Yeah. And once you figure that out, I think it just keeps going out from there. And I’m not saying it’s easy but at least, you know where your place is and you can focus and hone in on that, which is a really good feeling. 

Mackenzie:

Yeah. I think entrepreneurship was like what I wanted all along and I just had no idea ’cause I don’t come from a family of any sort of entrepreneurs and I just didn’t even think it was an option. 

And then I remember like I just did a bunch of weird things. I was like, “I’m going to start this nonprofit with this person who like, ‘Hit me up from Craigslist.’” That’s a true story. ‘Cuz I just wanted to build something so badly.

And then I was like, “Oh my God, I can get paid and make money doing what I’ve loved and I’m really good at. Why don’t I just do that?”

Debbie:

So how did you finally find your niche? How did that copywriting and helping other people really find their story and building a brand from that and creating an impact with something that was really your zone of genius? 

Mackenzie:

I love this question because it comes back to the community thing again. I didn’t really know. I was gonna just like be a general conversion copywriter. Like, I don’t know what I want to do. I’ll write everything for everyone, it doesn’t matter. 

And then I hired a social media coach, strategist, or something. She’s like, “So what’s your niche?” And was like, “Oh, don’t have one.” And she’s like, “No. Let’s sit down and let’s talk about this. Let’s figure out who you actually want to work with.” 

And if she hadn’t sat down, like, I don’t even think  it was part of what I was paying for, but she was like, “Let’s get this right for you from the start.” So we looked at, “Okay, who are my clients then in the past that I really enjoyed.” 

And I knew I didn’t want to do business-to-business technology anymore ’cause that was just a bunch of old white rich dudes that thought I was incapable of everything. And I’m like, “Bro, you have no idea, I’m actually really f*** it.” 

I was looking at the list of clients and I’m like, “Oh, I keep covering coaching clients.” Like, these coaches keep coming to me. I guess I like working with female coaches. And she’s like, “Great, let’s do it.” And that was like when I realized it’s a whole world of this. Like, the coaching industry and online, the whole thing. 

I’m just so happy I got to where I am because this is the right spot for me and I’m so happy. I finally found it. 

Debbie:

Yeah. And if you didn’t try all those other things, you wouldn’t be where you are right now because that’s really how you find this out. 

Mackenzie:

Exactly.

Debbie:

Ok, Mackenzie, I’m going to ask you five rapid-fire questions and you have to answer in one sentence. Are you ready? 

Mackenzie:

Oh my God, I’m so nervous. Okay.

Debbie:

What is the worst food that you’ve ever eaten and why?

Mackenzie:

Edamame that I made last night in the microwave. That was one sentence but my second sentence is why. I don’t like the texture, I don’t like the taste.I even tried putting in ranch popcorn powder on it which I know sounds bad but I was like, “Maybe it’ll work out well,” but no.

Debbie:

She’s just like, “No, this is not gonna work.”

Mackenzie:

Not an edamame girl.

Debbie:

What has been the best money you’ve ever spent while abroad? 

Mackenzie:

Oh, man…So I went to Portugal with my friends after college. That was like my only trip abroad that wasn’t with my family. So I would say just spending the money to get there ’cause I probably didn’t do anything.

That bottle of wine that I drank. I put two straws together, like, one inside the other, and drank out of this bottle of wine walking around Porto. That’s probably the best $7 I’ve ever spent.

Debbie:

I love how Mackenzie was just walking around in the street with a bottle of wine and two straws. That must have been the best.

Mackenzie:

Yes. People were always like, “Wow! How’d you made that straw contraption?” ‘Cause I always did it through college and I’m like, “Honey, you don’t even know. I’m a great engineer apparently.”

Debbie:

That could be another source of income for you if this copywriting thing doesn’t work out for you, Mackenzie. 

Mackenzie:

You just f***ed up with my future.

Debbie:

So describe what your ideal day looks like.

Mackenzie:

Sleeping in until however late as I want and getting up and not having anything on my schedule that’s like, “You must get to this right now.” And wearing yoga pants, being surrounded by my cats.

Honestly, probably working. Like, getting some work done, checking in with clients, opening up some emails to get some client feedback that they’re like, “Mackenzie, this is amazing.” And I’m like, “I know. You’re right.” 

Just kidding but that would be the day and then the end will be watching Real Housewives of New York City and drinking wine out of a straw.

Debbie:

Okay, that is the best day ever. I love all of that. 

Mackenzie:

Right?

Debbie:

And also the fact that you added drinking wine with a straw. That’s amazing, Mackenzie.

Mackenzie:

Always with a straw. I basically don’t know how to drink liquids without a straw anymore. It’s kind of concerning.

Debbie:

If you could have a superpower, what would it be?

Mackenzie:

Flying.

Debbie:

Where would you fly off to? Like, the first place that you’ll go.

Mackenzie:

Well, to be honest, Debbie, I would probably get my flying feet on straight and just go around the house a few times to make sure I was comfortable with it. And then It’s like, “The world is mine.”

Debbie:

You’d be like, “Yeah, I don’t want to fall down the sky outside, I’d rather do it here in my apartment.”

Mackenzie:

Yeah, I’d rather fall on my own roof. 

Debbie:

Yeah, pretty much.

What’s the one thing you wish you did sooner?

Mackenzie:

I feel like there’s an obvious one that I can’t think of right now. I’ll say this because I’m looking at my vision board: started saving money for a house. I say that ’cause I would love to have purchased a house by now but I just love a good shopping spree. Online, of course.

Debbie:

Don’t we all? Especially during the pandemic. That’s all we can do that’s fun.

Mackenzie:

Exactly.

Debbie:

So, let’s fast forward to about 30 to 40 years from now, Mackenzie, and you’re looking back at your life, what legacy would you like to leave and what do you want to be remembered for? 

Mackenzie:

Oh my gosh. So this answer would have been different. Like, 2 weeks ago, I had a bit of a revelation. So I was like, “I’m very go, go, go. Go to work and get sh*t done.“ Like, all about the destination kind of thing rather than the journey. 

I wanted to make my first million-dollar year before I was thirty. Like, these ideas, and then I was like, “Why am I doing this if I’m not enjoying the journey? Like, the time that I’m doing it, why am I stressing out to reach these goals that I think I need to reach if they’re not even enjoyable?”

So in 30 to 40 years, I would say I am not dead from a heart attack that is related to stress. I am thriving on a beach somewhere with so many cats because I bought a second house for my cats or got an addition to the home. I love a good cat and dog but I just look at cats.

But the legacy I would love to leave behind, I guess, it’s just hard to say this because it sounds so cheesy but my biggest thing in the online world and my business, in general, is just like, I hate saying it, to be yourself.

Because I feel like there are so many people just putting on whatever they think they need to put on. And that was me too. I was like, “Oh, I can’t curse on Instagram, it’s unprofessional. Blah blah blah.” Like, toning down myself and now I’m like, “Hey, let’s just f***ing do us and let the people who like us, come to us. Be obsessed with us because they can relate so hard and then make all our money from there.” 

So, I would say my legacy will just be like people saw what I built and felt inspired and felt inspired to do it in a way that was like super a hundred percent them. 

Debbie:

Also, when you are just being yourself, it is so much easier to be on social media.

Mackenzie:

Oh, my God. It’s so much easier.

Debbie:

It’s so much easier even like on stories. I don’t care. Like, I’ll just put stuff that I’m doing. I don’t redo things over and over again. I’m like, “This is me. That’s it.”

Mackenzie:

Yeah. I used to write something and then go back. Like, I would write it like I would want to write it, and then I would go back and be like, “Okay. Now, let’s remove all the curse words. Let’s remove any references to wine or booze or whatever.”

Debbie:

You’re like, “Wine all day with my two straws. That’s it.”

Mackenzie:

With my two straws. Yup!

Debbie

I love that, Mackenzie.

So if our listeners want to know more about you, where can they find you?

Mackenzie:

Head to my Instagram, give me a follow. I also have my website: MackenzieBFleming.com and you can find all my socials through there. I’ve got my Facebook groups: The Conversion Corner, Copywriting for Coaches and Consultants. I’m everywhere. It’s all kinds of fun.

Oh, and join Clubhouse, come hang out. I love Clubhouse rooms too.

Debbie

That’s actually how Mackenize and I connected – is through Clubhouse. And she has such an incredible energy that I’m like, “I have to have this girl on my podcast because she’s amazing.”

Mackenzie:

God bless Clubhouse. Gotta love it.

Debbie

Thank you so much and Mackenzie, you are amazing. 

Mackenzie:

Thank you for having me.


Show Credits:

Audio Engineer: Ben Smith

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